LW barrel for maurader .22

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Re: LW barrel for maurader .22

Postby rdm » Wed Jun 15, 2011 9:34 am

I continue to due my diligence even after I put down my initial $100 with Jim Gaska I initially spotted at: http://www.network54.com/Forum/79574/th ... t%27s+roll

There is more background on this L/W project at:
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/th ... r+Marauder

Apparently according to Yellow Forum members Jim Gaska is using the 16mm diam 605mm long .22 cal barrels. I assume the 16mm were chosen by Jim Gaska for their long term stability accuracy benefits. They are heavier and require more noise baffling than the 10mm L/W barrels. However, I assume the overall purpose of the option for the 17 inch barrel length design variant in his upgrade is to achieve maximum accuracy with minimized noise.

I have been studying the L/W product line at the sizes.
Lothar Walthers has a standard line of air rifle barrels
http://www.lothar-walther.de/163.php
Product catalog: http://www.lothar-walther.de/163.php

The blank air rifle choked barrels do come in .22 cal in diameters from 10-17mm (0.394-0.669")
and except for .30 cal barrels all air rifle barrels offered are only in the 605mm length (23.622").

L/W does have a distributor in Georgia. If we are to put a L/W barrel in a the Marauder pistol it has to be one of these products
Jim Gaska is cutting the 24" barrel down to 20" or 17" depending on you preference of sound vs f.p.s. After major sole searching and conflicting impulses I have chosen the quieter barrel length option due the realistic limitations on my shooting location.

Jim Gaska is on his long term planned vacation from June 15-23 so I cannot get an answer to confirm the barrel size he is using. Previously he told me large diameter but not how large. I am now currious how big the mrod and crod barrel diameters are to see if it is possible to make a Marauder pistol accept the smaller 10mm barrel.

He has said he will close this first L/W run on June 26, 2011 midnight. On June 27 he will order the barrels. I expect my L/W barrel possibly about mid-July. I am dreaming of L/w barrel mod enabling 1/2 inch groupings at 50 yards. Currently my .22 marauder does around 1 inch 5 shot selected grouping at 50 yards by my measure. I want better.
Last edited by rdm on Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:30 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: LW barrel for maurader .22

Postby rdm » Wed Jun 15, 2011 5:52 pm

There are photos on the yellow forum you should see of a recent test firing without shroud of the L/W barrel for the group buy from Jim Gaska. Jim Gaska is on vacation now but his friend posted this first 5 shot group target picture which looks good makes me pleased. He used the JSB 18.1gn pellets

http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/me ... +Prototype

The result reported is of a 0.5" group at 50 yards for a 5 shot group and this group appears in a photo on the web. He discloses he had taken some warm up shots etc. He says the bigger barrel was noticeably heavier. He did not report on the barrel length. He said that the unshrouded/ baffled bare L/W barrel that he used (also in a photo) is very loud when shot. It is reported elsewhere that the "group buy barrel" is thought to be the L/W 16mm barrel.

This is an early test for the "Marauder L/W barrel group buy" for which I put a $100 down payment. I am pleased with the results and glad for my down payment which establishes my shipping position in line. I am not very concerned about a little extra weight for more accuracy as long as the noise with shroud and baffle is fairly similar to my current barrel noise level.

In doing doing due diligence I did see on the yellow forum that Jim Gaska has previously sold and delivered $28 shroud extenders that are reported on the forums to work very well on the Marauder pistol. If the barrel works well I will get one those for my pistol as well.

I am optimistic and very pleased with this five shot group shown which free of outliers and eagerly await my barrel to do testing on my rifle.
Last edited by rdm on Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:58 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: LW barrel for maurader .22

Postby NeuRon » Wed Jun 15, 2011 8:31 pm

I really appreciate you sharing your work!

You mentioned that you were thinking of a 17" barrel with extended shroud and baffles? For the rifle or a pistol? It would be nice to have a stock-length shroud that is, effectively, an extended shroud with additional baffles. But I'm inclined to go with the stock-length 20" barrel and then add the extended shroud with additional baffles and hope that's near the noise-level of the stock .22 Mrod. It seems more common, but maybe not as common as the guys just going with the 23", unshrouded barrel. :shock:

Have you found others using a 17" barrel in the .22 rifle to good effect? I know you mentioned a lower velocity for the sake of lower noise. I'm extremely interested; I'm just gun-shy about stepping into areas I'm not real familiar with. But I know we share the same desire to get the noise of the .22 Mrod down quieter than stock, while improving accuracy/consistency within 30 yards or so. Stealth over long-range, with .50" groups at anything under 50 yards. :D

I know that the added diameter of the LW barrel is taking up more room in the shroud, but it would seem that the shroud extension would more than offset that loss, while providing the adequate number of baffles. It should be pretty close to stock noise-level.

But I can understand the guy's obligation to mention how much louder the 23" is and how the shroud extension would be needed to keep the noise closer to the stock level.
Prod (tuned by Paul B., LW barrel, RB grips, ACE Folding stock, camo, TKO & JG brakes)
Sold: .22 Mrod "The Toad" (tuned by Paul B., 18" LW barrel, Toad-A-Flage camo)
Sold: .25 TT Mrod w/ reservoir and shroud extensions
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Re: LW barrel for maurader .22

Postby rdm » Wed Jun 15, 2011 10:22 pm

NeuRon
I am afraid my response may a little long winded but I am giving this a lot of thought which require words to explain my decision go with the 17" barrel as I believe in summary it is overall a step in the direct of higher accuracy, and weight, though a little lower impact energy while maintain little effect on the same noise level and speed of shoot-ability in dynamic targeting. There are many factors favoring accuracy but it is does result in nearly doubling the barrel weight. Giving up a little energy and reducing the shot a little by adjusting the tuning provides the flexibility in design to strengthen the barrel and its accuracy. L/W offers for air rifles four products of differing barrel thickness for an important reason. Different designs have differing tradeoffs. A longer barrel is more front heavy and adds even more weight. The 17" barrel will be lighter than an extended 20 inch barrel. Which is really better is affected by the size and strength of the shooter, the properties of the target and how quickly the shooting situation change. Big long heavy guns may have attractive properties but they do have limitations. I would hope the 17" will make less noise and be more accurate, less weight and quicker to handle than the alternative 20" barrel but however small the effect might be the positives achieved in a new gun with fewer shots per fill and less impact energy. These are all small effects and very hard to know the numbers for without building many prototypes and doing lots of testing. The market for these barrels is limited. Adding $200 barrels to $459 guns is not the basis for a large market. I am willing to make my 75 yard shot worse for an improvement to the 50 yard shot and that is the tradeoff I think this requires of me. As can be seen with the help Chairgun shooting simulation software the harmful effects of muzzle energy reductions such as the target drop angle are greatest at the longer ranges. If you want ranges longer than the 50 yard shots you need to consider using a bigger caliber than .22 such as .25 or .357(4mm) with larger weights and more noise than the .22 Marauder.

This barrel is for my rifle and I hope to improve my 50 yard shooting while using a shooter's rest. I have done this shooting in my back yard and I currently have averaged 1.5 inch groups with the best ammo in my .22 Marauder. I am leaning strongly toward Jim's option 1 because option is less noisier and thought more accurate although it will have lower fps. The loss is in my opinion hoped to be a minor degradation by the 15% for shortening the barrel to 17" and I can accept that for a good chance at higher accuracy with the better and thicker barrel. The 5 shot grouping photo on the yellow forum of 0.5" group at 50 yards is better accuracy than I can consistently do now. The only real way to know is to build a bunch and try them and that is much less likely to happen for me without my funding some of the work.

I said a lot of my opinion above and the following includes more of the underlying data of why I think the way I do. In comparing the photos with my .22 Marauder I believe the barrel he said he was shooting is around 20 inches because it is longer than the silver ring near the barrel band. At about the same length as my current 20 inch barrel. If the 17 inch is a little better than this that would remarkably good news.

I speculate the fps issue is minor because my pistol has 640 fps with 14.3gn pellets and that has a ten inch barrel. That is the pistol barrel which is 50% of length the rifle and the speed is only 24% lower. So by that observation I speculate that the degradation from 15% shortening will be around 61 fps and if this level of reduction happens this for me is minor in exchange for lower noise. I need the quiet behavior and a chance for a higher accuracy as benefits of the shortening. A small change in fps I possibly may chose to attempt to get back by adjusting tuning the Marauder standard velocity screw which for my rifle is currently at the factory setting because the current fps is fine for what I do.

Jim is suggesting two configurations at this time. One size does not fit all equally well. Many more design variations are possible but they very expensive to pursue and he must follow the major economic preferences of the barrel aftermarket which I guess may be separated in two differing groups: those highly concerned about fpe such as "the outdoor big game hunter", and those highly concerned about shooting noise such as "the suburban back yard pest plinker".

option 1. A 17" barrel, bigger in diameter than the current barrel and more baffles working with the current shroud without extension to the shroud Since the current barrel is 20 inches this extra three inches allows more room for baffling. It will have roughly twice the baffles we have now. he believe this will hopefully be a little more accurate than the option #2. I guess this high accuracy may occur because Jim is not removing anything from the choked end of the barrel or the 15" prior to reaching the choked end. He is just removing three inches from the un-choked end more than for the 20" barrel . He says that the fps will be lower than option 2 because the pellet spends less time in the barrel. In my opinion this the best option for me "the suburban back yard plinker".

option 2. A 20" barrel, bigger in diameter than the current barrel with the same amount of baffling working with the current shroud now in use in the current rifle. This will have more noise because the barrel his feels is best is bigger in outside diameter. Exactly what he thinks the benefits are of the bigger barrel enable I do not know but I do know he is very concerned with high accuracy. For those that need highest fps this is what he recommends. Examples are those uses of 21.4gn ammo that have tuned their Marauder rifles to the maximum velocity to get the flatter trajectory on long 75 yard shots. Under this belief it may be a little accurate or the same as the seventeen inch barrel but have a flatter shot. In my opinion this group may be consider increases in caliber such as the .25 caliber Marauder or .357 Rogue but chooses this expensive barrel because he needs to remain at the trade off of .22 caliber. The higher caliber such as .357 typicall though will be optimize with tradeoffs that will bring more range and impact energy at the expense of more noise, weight, mobility and speed of shooting with dynamic targets.

Jim says installing the barrel requires only conventional tools and fairly quick he say less than five minutes for him but others that have not done it much will require time. I can restore the gun to the factory barrel if this fails so the level of my risk is merely the $200 which for me is reasonable since it is my father's day present. I will great appreciate having an aftermarket German barrel with high accuracy and low noise so that I can shoot without concern in my back yard. I do care about highest fps because I am concerned that pellets do not penetrate through my target bullet box. For the pests around me the current power is plenty and maybe more than than I need. In fact my 14 fpe Marauder pistol is powerful enough at ranges up to 30 yards. The .22 Marauder I favor for ranges from 20 to 50 yards if accuracy is vital. Most of my real moving targets are within range of the pistol though.
Last edited by rdm on Thu Jun 16, 2011 10:05 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: LW barrel for maurader .22

Postby NeuRon » Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:15 am

Excellent information! Thank you, rdm. :)

A few more questions, if you don't mind:

Do you just plan to purchase the added baffles to fill the rest of the space, in the shroud, that the 17" barrel will leave? What are they, an inch/baffle, so 3 baffles?

Have you given any thought to trying to secure the baffles to each other (metal-backed ducting tape, perhaps?), in an effort to keep them aligned during reassembly? Do you already use a wooden dowel-rod to keep them aligned during reassembly?

Will you just replace all baffles with the newer, .25 size or enlarge the holes in your .22 baffles?

Will you just enlarge the plastic end-cap on the factory Mrod barrel to fit into the larger diameter LW barrel, or do you think it might not be needed with the additional diameter of this LW barrel?

I think that's all. :lol: You have me pretty well convinced to go with Option #1 (17" barrel, additional baffles, stock shroud).
Prod (tuned by Paul B., LW barrel, RB grips, ACE Folding stock, camo, TKO & JG brakes)
Sold: .22 Mrod "The Toad" (tuned by Paul B., 18" LW barrel, Toad-A-Flage camo)
Sold: .25 TT Mrod w/ reservoir and shroud extensions
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Re: LW barrel for maurader .22

Postby rdm » Thu Jun 16, 2011 9:59 am

NeuRon: A few more questions, if you don't mind:
Your questions help guide in my evaluation, thank you for these relevant and important questions. The power of the group is greater than invidual.

Do you just plan to purchase the added baffles to fill the rest of the space, in the shroud, that the 17" barrel will leave? What are they, an inch/baffle, so 3 baffles?

I plan to get whatever is require to replace my barrel from Jim Gaska. I supply money and he gives me stuff which with a screw drive and allen wrench I can quickly install. The number of baffels is up to him but I a little indefinite without some further tests. I think the answer now is 2+ baffles to fit inside the existing shroud.

Have you given any thought to trying to secure the baffles to each other (metal-backed ducting tape, perhaps?), in an effort to keep them aligned during reassembly? Do you already use a wooden dowel-rod to keep them aligned during reassembly?
This is unknown at his time as the final baffle is completed. There are pieces and ideas some untried but no final product

Will you just replace all baffles with the newer, .25 size or enlarge the holes in your .22 baffles?
I hope to do nothing and Jim will work out these details. .25 size baffles though may not suppress the report as effectively.


Will you just enlarge the plastic end-cap on the factory Mrod barrel to fit into the larger diameter LW barrel, or do you think it might not be needed with the additional diameter of this LW barrel?

Again, this is a question for Jim Gaska after he has the first generation product completed. I would hold there would be an end-cap to keep the clearance clean as the clearance is less than half of the previous one. But the barrel should stiffer than shroud now. The previous barrel was not and that ultimate creates variations which turn into accuracy in the long term. A precisely reference stiff barrel can be consistently accurate in a changing world (shock, temperature, time, etc). The angle of error of concerned is a small fraction of a minute of arc. This requires extreme measures like heavy stiff strong barrels.

I think that's all. :lol: You have me pretty well convinced to go with Option #1 (17" barrel, additional baffles, stock shroud).

I think you could call option 1 the "the extreme accuracy pest plinker" with current medium low noise maintained and option 2 "the magnum extreme long range shooter" with possibly a minor cost in grouping accuracy and noise but more fps for range and energy for target impact. Option 2 has competition from bigger calibers. Both options require many small compromises in the pursuit of accuracy. Both are risky but $200 is not an unreasonable father's day present. I think you like I probably are tasking the most appropriate risks pursuant the goals best matched to our desires. I hope it works out well for us.

I would buy a Rouge but I cannot use it in my back yard. I not shoot very much but it is another interesting optimization of design and it uses new materials and components for air guns such as an electronic trigger, valve and computer controlled energy regulator that combined with an advanced digital electronic imaging scope that knows where is and what is doing to augment the shooter would be awesome. The minimum sensible range of the Rogue is too long and the power is more than I need. I stll may get one though if I fail to remind myself of these issues.

Update from airgunbliss on the Yellow forum:

The barrel is 21in long, and 16mm in diameter. I weighed the stock barrel at 285.7g. The barrel from Jim was too heavy for my scale. My scale goes up to 650g.


I believe is a non completed prototype of for option #2. The current barrel weighs 0.63 lbs and the 16mm 21" prototype weighs more than 1.43 lbs or more than 2.3X more (~0.8 lbs). My rough guess is the long barrel option would be nearly a pound (16 oz) more and the 17 in barrel (12 oz) more than the current barrel. It is heavy for sure but hopefully very stiff and stable as well.

And news on option #2 purchasers from Jim Gaska on vacation

Guys,
Considering the increased sound volume caused by the larger diameter barrel, I will be happy to substitute the shroud mounts for a 1/2-unf clamp-on adapter for the end of the barrel. Cost will be the same as the shroud mounts, or you can add it for $20.

Regards,
Jim
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Re: LW barrel for maurader .22

Postby NeuRon » Thu Jun 16, 2011 11:19 am

Another nice thing about the 17" LW barrel will be that there is still room to add a shroud extension, to offset the space taken up by the larger diameter of the LW barrel. It would be like having two shroud extensions and more baffles than needed.

I'm certain that it would not result in extreme (2x less) noise-reduction, but I would think it would be enough to get it close to that of the original.
Prod (tuned by Paul B., LW barrel, RB grips, ACE Folding stock, camo, TKO & JG brakes)
Sold: .22 Mrod "The Toad" (tuned by Paul B., 18" LW barrel, Toad-A-Flage camo)
Sold: .25 TT Mrod w/ reservoir and shroud extensions
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Re: LW barrel for maurader .22

Postby rdm » Thu Jun 16, 2011 12:13 pm

NeuRon wrote:Another nice thing about the 17" LW barrel will be that there is still room to add a shroud extension, to offset the space taken up by the larger diameter of the LW barrel. It would be like having two shroud extensions and more baffles than needed.

I'm certain that it would not result in extreme (2x less) noise-reduction, but I would think it would be enough to get it close to that of the original.


We think the same. It is still too loud with #2 there is a plan "b" of adding the external extension shroud in front. I think both serious about getting no increase in noise but I want to make sure my new custom German heavy stiff barrel shoots straight as well. The baffling may be added in 3 inch increments.

The 21 inch barrel makes more noise than 17 inch barrel because the fps was likely greater than previously. Though he shot JSP Jumbo Heavy 18gn. I have a tin of them and just about everything esle in .22cal out there in diabolo shape but they only work well in the pistol and not the rifle.

Another dividend I hope for from the greater care given to the stiffer $100 wholesale L/W barrel in contrast with $16 barrel Crosman barrel is that the L/W barrel probably works better with a wider wider range of ammo. In the high Marauder volume I suspect the .22 cal barrel Crosman cost is under $11 as the replacement parts business is typically high mark up for high volume parts. Skinny flexible barrels seem like they may be inherently finicky.

A little more due diligence from the Yellow Forum:

this link to the forum has some photos as well as data.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/79537/th ... oup+Buy%29

Got the .22 (barrel) done and it is being tested, .25 Polygon 23" is on my rifle and here are some pictures showing the barrel, stripper, and rear shroud mount. The effects of the larger diameter barrel can be seen on the SPL meter. I added a 2.7" (two-baffle) extension with 2.5 baffles and got 72dB. Still higher than the stock 64db, but better than the 78db without the extension and baffling. Please keep in mind this rifle is 118db without any shroud.
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Re: LW barrel for maurader .22

Postby NeuRon » Thu Jun 16, 2011 2:08 pm

I am so anxious to know how loud this 17", stock shroud/baffles set-up will be... ...but I have a feeling that the extended shroud (with baffles, air-stripper, or simply a spacer) will be needed to keep it in the mid-60 decible range. Here's to hoping it will prove to be in the low-60 decible range. ;)

There is always the option of having the outer diameter milled down a bit (being mindful of the .050" suggested minimum around the choke). With just a bit less OD, you'll still be left with a superior barrel than stock, stiffer, shorter, similar in weight (but closer to the shoulder), with enough room around it in the shroud to put it in the very low 60 db range. If someone were to have enough knowledge and resources to determine how the air/sound would travel in the shroud, it might prove beneficial to mill 'rings' around the barrel that act as additional baffling?

I guess the point of my rambling, in short, is that it has the potential to be a great barrel for shorter applications, with plenty of room to work on it for even more specific needs.

EDIT: Just sent my PayPal payment to the email address for Jim Gaska, along with an email with the required information. And for $15, I'll definately take the air-stripper and shroud extension for good measure. :D

We're officially in the same boat on this, rdm. Thank you for relaying all of the information that you found. Without that, I wouldn't have done it myself and moved on this opportunity so quickly. Here's to smooth sailing. 8-)
Prod (tuned by Paul B., LW barrel, RB grips, ACE Folding stock, camo, TKO & JG brakes)
Sold: .22 Mrod "The Toad" (tuned by Paul B., 18" LW barrel, Toad-A-Flage camo)
Sold: .25 TT Mrod w/ reservoir and shroud extensions
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Re: LW barrel for maurader .22

Postby Kesepton » Thu Jun 16, 2011 4:37 pm

Ive been following the progress of the barrels and was so excited to see that its coming together. Sadly... I am not sure I can justify to my girl why I need to buy a new barrel for my gun when I just bought it and it shoots fine. Its pretty hard to convince myself, but not too bad....

I hope there will be oppurtunities to buy them later. Im really glad that itll be available to those who have been having so much trouble with the .22s though.
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